Gay Christians

No Christian has any excuse for asserting that the Bible condemns gay people or gay relationships. The scholarship has been done.

My concern is more to defend the Bible from those who think it outdated, violent and ridiculous rather than to defend gay people from Evangelicals who hate them, whom I find ridiculous. But I understand in America, real harm is done by Evangelicals who hate gay people, and rich Republicans get poor people to vote for them by spouting hatred. Therefore it is good to know that the Bible does not condemn us. Here are some useful links:

Whole Biblelesbian-marriage

Matthew Vines gives a long discussion of the six passages taken out of context to condemn us. He looks at the Greek words and their uses in the Bible and elsewhere. This is all you need to know. The video is one hour long.

Would Jesus Discriminate? has accessible scholarly articles, explaining the Greek and the real meaning of the clobber passages, and also same-sex love affirmed in the Bible.

Steve Chalke writes about the application of the Bible to today, and other questions such as whether women could be heard in Church. There is no condemnation of faithful gay relationships in the New Testament.

Hope Remains has pages on each text, quoting and transliterating as well as translating the original languages.

Justin Lee of the Gay Christian Network.

Genesisfirst-gay-lesbian-marriages-nyc-new-york

Genesis 2:24 This is the reason that a man leaves his father and mother and embraces his wife, and they become one flesh. This shows the power of Love. It does not prescribe heterosexual, or monogamous, marriage. See here.

The Sodom story, Gen 19: 1-29. The city-dwellers want to rape the angels. Gay bars can be a bit rowdy, but this is as far from the experience of most gay men as from straight men. The passage is about hospitality, as Ezekiel 16:49 confirms: Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

Then again, if they were all gay, the “Righteous man” Lot lived among them quite happily.

See Michelle Krabill, Homosexuality and God: Part 2.
Would Jesus Discriminate on Sodom.

Leviticuslesbian_marriage

We ignore most of Leviticus, no longer sacrificing animals or abstaining from “unclean” food. Why keep one verse? I expand on this argument here.

Leviticus 20:13 says If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Oh my God they want to kill us! Who could think citing this appropriate?

Michelle Krabill: Homosexuality and God: Part 1
Would Jesus Discriminate: Israel’s holiness code.

Hope Remains goes into the Hebrew, and finds that  a literal translation is “a man who will lie down in a woman’s bed” which does not necessarily refer to having sex.

Deuteronomywedding

Dt 22:5 is the verse against trannies: wearing the clothes of the opposite sex is Abominable. Except, why would it start with women? Because priests, soldiers and judges all wore particular clothes, thought of as men’s clothes. It is about roles, not clothing.

That chapter also calls for the stoning of a woman who is not a virgin when she gets married. It is obsolete. More here. For a more nuanced interpretation, valuing the Torah, here is Trans Christians.

Exodus 28:40, KJV: And for Aaron’s sons thou shalt make coats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and bonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.

RuthLesbianWedding

Ruth married a man. However the whole book indicates that Naomi was her partner, Boaz the man they had to have for protection.

Naomi and her husband and sons, Ephrathites from Bethelehem, went to live in Moab because of a famine, and there her sons married Ruth and Orpah. When the three women were widowed, Naomi decided to return to Judah, and told her daughters in law that they should return to their families. Orpah did, but Ruth made this beautiful declaration of Love:

Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. 17 Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.’ 18 When Naomi realised that Ruth was determined to go with her, she stopped urging her.

After, Ruth married Boaz, and had a son; but some argue that such great love that she would leave her home and her people, and go to another country with Naomi, not even to be separated by death, is lesbian. See Valley Ministries, Would Jesus Discriminate, Trevor Dennis.

Samuelwedding

David loved Jonathan more than women. 2 Samuel 1:26- I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women. Some homophobes still cannot accept that this was a loving relationship.

Would Jesus Discriminate shows the nature of this love.

Gospels9

Jesus never condemns gay people. His woes apply more to homophobes, who load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Jesus healed the Centurion’s pais. There were other meanings for that word, but in context it is clear that it means male lover. See also the Huffington Post, and Gay Christian 101. If you want the raw evidence, I discuss the 24 uses of the word in the NT in this comment.

Jesus said, ‘Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others – and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.’ (Matthew 19). Here is a lengthy and detailed argument that “eunuchs who were born that way”, mentioned by Jesus without condemnation, were gay men. Here is Michelle Krabill. Hidden Meanings delves into use of the word “eunuch” in other texts and 1st century culture.

Romanslesbian_wedding-gay-officiant

Romans 1. Paul writes about worship in pagan temples. 1:21-23, though people could perceive there was a God, they worshipped idols. Therefore God gave them over to shameful lusts. But Paul’s main concern is his congregation, not the outsiders: And such were some of you. That is, judge not.

Michelle Krabill: Homosexuality and God: Part 5.
Would Jesus Discriminate: Idol worship.

1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy

The Greek words used here are the same.

1 Corinthians 6. Even the NIV footnote is wrong: the two words do not refer to the “active and passive” partners, but to slaves used as rent-boys and their abusers. 1 Timothy 1: 9-10 The words translated “for those practising homosexuality” are mistranslated.

On how arsenokoitai refers to an action, rather than an orientation- exploitative sex used to demean another: Canyon Walker Connections.
Would Jesus discriminate? No fems, no fairies.

Jude

Again, context is relevant. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling – these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In a similar way: the writer first refers to Genesis 6:1-4, where angels lusted after human women, and then to Genesis 19:1-29, where humans demanded to rape angels. The clue is “in a similar way”. The passage is better used against obsession with or worship of angels.

Cretans

Bad people, according to pseudo-Paul. Onewedding of Crete’s own prophets has said it: ‘Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.’13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

Do not take verses out of context, to condemn a particular group of people. People from Crete are no worse than gay people. Oddly enough, this is Epimenides the Cretan’s paradox: “All Cretans are liars”, he said. But if he was telling the truth, he was lying. Was the writer fooling with us?

Oh, and can you really be saved, if you are left-handed?

The church’s response

There is hope all over the Church that its wicked persecution of gay people is coming to an end:
Quakers in Britain celebrate gay marriages in the same way we celebrate straight marriages- see minute 23 at page 14. My meeting held a wedding in May 2014.
The Presbyterian Church of the USA marries “two people, The interim wording, “traditionally a man and a woman”, has now been removed.
The Heartland Proclamation proclaims gay rights and apologises for past silence.
Reconciling Works advocates for the full inclusion of LGBT folk in Lutheran churches.
Catholics for Equality represents the majority Catholic view on equal marriage, which will not be silenced by the hierarchy.
The Episcopal Church of the USA has promulgated resolution A049 allowing same sex blessing services in their churches.
Accepting Evangelicals in the Church of England move towards the acceptance of faithful, loving, same sex partnerships at every level of church life.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America weddingadmits there is still a dispute: this church has begun to understand in new ways the need of same-gender oriented individuals to seek relationships of lifelong companionship and commitment as well as public accountability and legal support for those commitments. However better to admit a dispute than to insist that gay people be celibate.
The United Church of Christ supports equal marriage.
Not All Like That has videos of Christians affirming gay people.
The Pilling Report gives a chance for the Church of England to become accepting.
The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists does exactly that.
Methodists in New Directions towards welcoming LGBT.
The Church of Scotland allows ministers to be in civil partnerships.
The Anglican Church of Canada has voted to celebrate same sex marriages.

Slavery

Arguably, Biblical argumentswedding in favour of slavery are stronger than those against homosexuality, and they were still being made by preachers in the late 19th century.

You may not be able to stomach it, but here is “Doctor” Thornton Stringfellow, D.D., his work Scriptural and Statistical views in favor of Slavery, the fourth edition of 1856, made available by the University of North Carolina. Dr Stringfellow shows how St Paul’s epistles clearly condemn the Abolitionist cause. At p58 he refutes a divine arguing a biblical case for abolition, and then proceeds to his statistical arguments: for example, that though the population was similar, the five slave states erected nearly twice as many churches as New England, and therefore must be more moral.

Other

Here is an article on the distress wedding 2of the privileged: Christians who believe the Bible and their faith condemn homosexuality get upset when told this view is ridiculous and disgusting (which it is). That distress is not equivalent to the distress of the oppressed. The hater is the homophobe, not the gay person who reacts to the homophobe. Here is a simple analogy: if you pass a person lying in the street, and kick him in the neck, are you surprised when he yells abuse at you? “What a hater he is!” the aggrieved Christian homophobe says, affecting surprise.

Other sites and organisations: The Reformation Project, seeks to reform Church teaching on sexual orientation and gender identity.

Unfundamentalist Christians: Heterosexual Christians are being unbiblical by using the clobber passages as justification for applying absolute standards of morality to homosexual “sins” that they themselves are not tempted to commit, while at the same time accepting for themselves a standard of relative morality for those sins listed in the clobber passages that they do routinely commit.

Here are my own posts on the Bible and gay matters, including equal marriage: Witnesses of Hell, Arguing the Bible, Poor Christians, Gay marriage, David and Jonathan; an argument that a good Bible-believing Christian should support Slavery, Words of encouragement on using the Bible to support us, Jesus and Hell, Gospels, A better “Normal“, Saying Nothing on the option of just shutting up about homosexuality for a bit, Jellie-babies, Empathy on how difficult some straights find it to empathise with gay people, The Word of God on how it is difficult even to know what the Bible says, how the Bible is full of Contradictions, The Hell people on an unhealthy obsession with Hell, Conversation on seeing wedding 1the World in black and white, Sibboleth on the undue weight given to the issue of homosexuality, a further loss on how everyone loses because of the persecution of gays; tolerating intolerance on forgiveness, Evidence on how beliefs affect assessment of scientific fact, Agree to disagree? on tolerating homophobic “Christians”, Moral objections to gay sex, on how there are none, Christian hate.

Here, a Southern Baptist pastor shares why his church is now a “Third way” church, while gay affirming and anti-gay congregants can worship together and pay attention to each other:

168 thoughts on “Gay Christians

  1. I found this previous post [comment] interesting: “Preston has done exegesis: what the Bible actually says. I disagree with some of his conclusions, and on Romans sometimes he leaves the Side A arguments unanswered: but what should that mean for the church? If the Bible condemns gay sex, what should the pastor say to the gay church member? Should the gay church member decide to be celibate? What should the church do, with regard to the affairs of the world, such as secular recognition of gay relationships? ”

    I think you realize it is wrong but ask the question what should the Pastor say, that one should be celibate?
    Yes! What should he say to someone who wants to cross dress or someone who wants to get drunk or someone who wants to cheat on their wife? Sin is to be ignored. Also one is not gay because of their thoughts it is when the fulfill those thoughts.

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    • Gay is the neutral descriptor, Jack. A “gay person” is attracted to persons of their own sex. There is no “gay agenda”, just people, as God created us.

      I am glad you are here. It is just possible that the truth may get through to you, however much you have armoured yourself against it.

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      • I never “armour” myself against truth. I am all about truth. I gave you a list of things people should not do and it would be considered sin if they did. Do you agree? In other words, do you support cross dressing? The Bible says no. Do you support spousal cheating? The Bible says no. Or drunkenness…Do you find yourself opposing other things the Bible is against?

        I think you have this desire (albeit un natural) and have decided that I don’t care if it’s wrong . I will do it anyway. Perhaps you were spoiled as a child? However the good thing is you seem to want to have that relationship with God, you only waant to creaate Him in your own image.

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        • Of course I oppose things the Bible is against; and many things the Bible is for, such as the slaughter of neighbouring peoples.

          It is not that “I do not care if it is wrong”. I am led by God into self-acceptance.

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  2. This is why people need to study the Bible and not just read it. Ask God to reveal it to you.You say you are against the slaughter of your neighbors. I would assume everyone is. The slaughter came in the old testament when Israel was ruled by God and they were an independent society. If you read, in most instances it said because their time has come. These people worshiped false gods, sacrificed their children…God gave them time to repent just like he gives to all of us, just like he is giving you. their time has expired. The Bible speaks also of the end of the earth and the new earth and so on when many will perish who reject Him.
    Additionally, God made everything and has control over it. He allows us to go our own way or else how could there be true love for us to God. You questioning Him makes as much sense as a baby questioning their parents.

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  3. Don’t you think there is a difference between copying Scripture and making up stories? Do you really believe God would lead you to accept yourself as is when He wants to change you? I don’t even care to speak about the homosexuality but about your separation from God which you are. The Homosexuality is just a sign of that separation. If you were a drunk it would be the same. The bible says about Jesus that He is the way the truth and the life and no one goes to the father except by Him. That leaves out the Muslims. Do you agree?

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  4. Now you are doing the liberal jiggle. What are you talking about? You said you are opposed to the slaughter… something which does not exist today and it had it’s reasons for existing then. You are not pointing out my interpretation which is an old fallback when people do not study or truly know the Bible. You have no information on it except from what you have read by some radical revisionists. You take small scriptures and twist them. I studied the Bible for 44 years.Also, I answer any question you put to me, please do the same even if it means you have to say you don’t know.

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    • Oh dear, the “liberal jiggle”. All these bad, scary liberals getting at you? Forty years study, and still no understanding, O ye blind guide. Which questions? Can we stick to one thread, this is getting confusing.

      These questions? I thought they were rhetorical.

      J: Don’t you think there is a difference between copying Scripture and making up stories?

      C: Scripture has many made-up stories- Job, Jonah, Adam, Moses, David- there is no evidence for the Exodus anywhere else, and there would be. Omri, on the other hand, is attested in Assyrian records. These stories have value, but varying purpose and value.

      J: Do you really believe God would lead you to accept yourself as is when He wants to change you?

      C: Someday, Jack, you really must get someone to explain to you what a “paradox” is.

      J: I don’t even care to speak about the homosexuality but about your separation from God which you are. The Homosexuality is just a sign of that separation. If you were a drunk it would be the same. The bible says about Jesus that He is the way the truth and the life and no one goes to the father except by Him. That leaves out the Muslims. Do you agree?

      C: I am with Origen on Apokatastasis.

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  5. I should say anyone who does not accept Christ as their Saviour which would include Muslims, JW’s, Mormons, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Catholics… It’s a wide way that leads to destruction. There are people who think they are safe and Jesus said “I never knew you” Who do you think that is?

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  6. Some people suggest annihilation. Jesus spoke more on hell than heaven. If we take the entire bible and try to make it into analogy then we make God into a gamester. I think He is clear that at the very least it is eternal separation from Him.

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  7. Now you have given me cause to stop the debate. We are at different beliefs. You believe everything was a story, a good lesson at best. No proof of the exodus? Haven’t you seen the photos of hundreds of chariots at the bottom of the sea? They said there was no Jonah until they proved it. They said so much that was eventually proved.

    Let me say, if you do not believe in the entire Bible and if you do not believe that God can preserve His truth. than you are lost. You are left to a morality of your choosing. You might think it’s alright to kill Christians or to hang Italians. Your morality would be what you make it or it would be a compromise of an entire community. Today, Gay is a crime, tomorrow it is not.

    How could I debate you without an absolute value?

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    • Go in peace.

      The tragedy is that what we share is so much more important than what we disagree about: the desire to follow Christ. Of course I believe in the Bible, even that it is inspired- but that does not mean that everything in it happened as said. I believe in Dorothea Casaubon, she is True: but the town of Middlemarch never existed.

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  8. I have my own feelings like when God said go in and kill them man women and children. No one likes that but if the children are quickly and painlessly killed they won’t grow up to be godless likes their parents. All I can say if God has declared Hell as an endless punishment, I can not understand it. I know it’s right because God can not be wrong. I also know He loved me enough to warn me against it so if I were to arrive at Hell I would have refused to listen to the truth.

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  9. Apples and Oranges. The Bible declares to be the word of God. Period. How about building something using faulty instructions or traveling somewhere with an out dated map. Should we guess about how many pills to take or should we presuppose that he will tell the truth and be accurate? Should we not expect complete accuracy from the God who causes the earth to revolve around the sun? It is impossible to not believe the entire Bible and have a life in Christ. So you have taken a book that you don’t believe half of and twisted the scriptures to say what you want them to say and you expect people to take your truth as truth? I am simple enough to understand my limitations. I need to know what is right and what is wrong. Although I do believe it is mostly intrinsic planted by God as well as I believe you constantly question it. We both want love,joy, peace, and all good things. I wish you that but if you have nothing but your “version” or all the thoughts that you have borrowed from others, you do not have God. The Bible says you will find Him when you search for Him with all your heart. Jesus testified to the truth of the Scriptures. Can’t you see that you are the one changing that?

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  10. No one so blind as those who refuse to see. God is against the practice of homo sexuality. Clearly taught throughout Gods Word. I think I’ll put my trust in Him!

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  11. hink Claire must have deleted your stuff?=====jimnjoy: [Clare: I deleted two comments from Jim Finn. Jimnjoy is here. ]

    How do you know what the term “pais” means in this context? It can be translated several ways, usually as “young servant”. What evidence do you have that the word “pais” has homosexual connotations in this context? If it does have homosexual connotations it is the ONLY time it does in the entire Bible.

    I have provided the reference above. I hardly think I should have to repeat it here. Click the links, that is what they are there for.

    Claire is a nice lady who is very confused. She gets her information from whoever will agree with her position. She does not understand the Greek meaning of Pais nor does she care to. If someone suggested the Greek word for ignorance means everyone can be a homosexual, she would fight tooth and nail to support it. She twists Scripture and does not understand it. Pray the Holy Spirit will convict her.

    [Clare: well, thank you for “nice”, anyway.]

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  12. I can imagine there are all kinds of people in the world. If I saw a child pick up something really disgusting from the ground and eat it, my stomach would churn, I’d scold him and tell him that is a very disgusting thing to do but why on earth would I hate him? You also misunderstand rebuke with condemnation. Who other than God has the power to condemn? If I condemn you than I condemn myself who is also a sinner. I do admit it to be a hot topic but hey, you should hear what we say about liberals! 🙂

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  13. Thanks for the advice and the compliment. Yes, that’s me. Also, drp the wordpress and you have our Church site and others once you get there. I saw that askimet. I will just have to start reading up on it. I get tired easy.

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    • I disagree with you about World Vision. CS Lewis said devils are equally pleased by those who deny their existence, and those who feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. In calling this announcement “demonic” you give too much power to the devil. I know about the Fall, but you push that too far. God has other hands than yours.

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  14. Why am I not surprised? 🙂 I believe all evil has a demonic base so if someone punches me for absolutely no reason, I believe the devil had something to do with it. “Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ”

    I could and might hire a gay to work in my factory or art supply or hamburger joint but not in a place like a christian outreach.

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  15. I agree that our Biblical translations of passages referencing homosexuality leave something to be desired. But the idea that David and Jonathan were more than just (really) good friends seems a bit like wishful thinking, even after looking at some of the arguments for this. Biblical interpretation is a tricky thing. I think the best you can hope for is a reinterpretation of the clobber passages, and then fill in the silence that remains. I have written up some more thoughts here: http://lambchopmeditations.com/2014/05/11/queer-theology/

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    • Welcome, and thank you for commenting. Because of that link, I will add a section on Ruth: even though she was married before, married afterwards and mother of a son by Boaz, her loyalty to Naomi seems to go further than a widowed daughter in law.

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      • C’mon Claire, that’s a joke right. In between being married to Naomi’s son and later marrying Boaz, Ruth had a lesbian affair? Are you so desperate to validate your lifestyle that you will absolutely twist the truth? Shame on you. And @ Johandp, the problem with
        “Biblical translations ” are they are not the authorized version but Satanic misprints.

        Liked by 1 person

        • I am glad to see you are still with us, Jack. Perhaps the love here will rub off on you. Ruth’s marriage to Boaz was entirely a matter of convenience; her declaration to Naomi is beautiful love and commitment, often read at wedding ceremonies- even straight ones!

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  16. Hi Claire, I really have to go to bed now but respond, I will reply in the morning. You did not answer my question. I loved my father very, very much beyond many other people who have not had such a good relationship. I loved my father in law. Heck, I have a homosexual relative who I love and think he is a great guy but none of these things suggest I am a homosexual. Just admit you twist scripture. You want God to bless what you are doing so much you will rewrite His laws. Claire, I like you but admit you are wrong, repent, ask god for strength. Good night. 🙂
    \

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  17. Thanks for writing this, Clare. You’re right – I know the Bible has much to say, and SO MUCH gets touted and cherry picked and used on both sides of the argument…and the argument itself is the most destructive.

    The two most important things to remember about the Bible, above ALL ELSE…are about LOVE.

    And it seems to me that greed and lying and other things are FAR more vehemently spoken against, yet it’s the issue of homosexuality which seems to have captured society’s imagination…and their gaze…and I wonder what’s being missed, behind a smokescreen which doesn’t need to be there.

    In the end, who am I to judge. It is not my place. My place is to LOVE. I think that’s what you’re showing here 🙂

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          • Woe to you, blind guide. If you prefer the AV to more modern translations- my favourite is the NRSV, at the moment- you have nothing to teach anyone. Your statement of faith . that each church is independent and autonomous and must be free from interference by any ecclesiastical or political authority sounds very like those child-abusers I linked about above. Repent. You are now on moderation here, so unless you say something interesting, worthwhile, and giving a sweet savour to God, your comments will be deleted.

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  18. Twisting Scripture is not the answer. When you use the book called niv you are using a book that was written to push a gay lifestyle. It is a twisted scripture. With the KJV having over 50,000 pieces of manuscript and written by a consortium of scholars, compared to about 50 pieces of writing from the pagan culture., you have twisted scripture. Do your homework. Just because you are enticed by the devil , doesn’t make it right to do it. Bank robbers, pedophiles, adulterers are all enticed. Some would swear it was morally correct but we know it’s not. Now let someone tell you the truth and stop talking yourself into believing that foul is fair.

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  19. I see you are not familiar with the Bible and probably get your info from third parties. The word sodomite …

    [Edited because Jack contributes nothing of value, is pointlessly offensive, knows nothing of Christ, and bores me. My comment policy is, don’t bore me.]

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  20. Don’t worry, I won;t say anything else.

    [Rest deleted, because silly. Unfortunately it was a lie: Jack came back, blaspheming Christ by claiming Christ as his lackey. Oh Jack! Turn to Christ! Condemn the child abusers!

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  21. Hi Claire, i see you are trying to convince yourself that homosexuality is not a sin by twisting the bible, i may give you proof or try to convince you otherwise but i thank God that he sent as a helper the Holy Spirit who gives us the heart of discernment, as you read scripture don’t really on your own understanding(Proverbs 3;5-6} but then pray to God that he may give you understanding and discernment because the bible was written as a guide to help us
    Above all we live by grace and not by the law, so seek God and you will find him. If you still feel you in the right direction well and good.

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    • Oh, it’s Mwanik! Welcome, and thank you for commenting. You’re the guy who alludes to Leviticus 20, yes? they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. Not my taste, mate.

      Thank you for reading. Perhaps you will learn something. God may yet open your eyes.

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  22. It’s St Paul you’ve got to worry about:

    ” 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
    27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

    Luckily you don’t have to worry about Paul to actually be a Christian! (there were Christians before Paul wrote that).

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    • Welcome, jtteop. Thank you for commenting.

      It is very good to meet you. I find you fascinating and infuriating. On one level, I am irritated to hear you quote a passage where I have in the page above already answered this objection, and given resources for greater understanding. I do worry about Paul, but do not find him as hostile as his interpreters and translators; and I allow him to be wrong, sometimes, or inadequate, as he is about slavery.

      Your idea that “gay is not innate” is most often used to justify oppression: so that homophobes feel entitled to condemn people who enter healthy normal relationships with those of the same sex. I found that infuriating, yet now interpret your words as increasing freedom: there is a myth of “being gay” used to control a large part of the population who do not fit narrow gender norms. Our choices could be wider than that if not constrained by the understandings imposed by society. Yet I feel our sexual attractions are independent of our words and myths. If you ever feel an attraction to someone of the same sex, it will exist unmediated by the words you use to describe it.

      At first I was infuriated: I needed to read a second time to find what I might like.

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      • Greetings to you too.

        I think Paul is hostile but also not core to Christianity in a religious sense but rather in a practical sense of if it hadn’t been for Paul the Christianity would probably be practiced by about 20 people and only in the Middle East.

        I understand that sexuality being inate is a tool that is used by people to get greater rights and I very much want them to have those rights – just not on a false basis.

        Of course if I want to say that it isn’t inate then I have to explain how this tallies with people’s self reports that they feel it to be inate. One way of this is to compare it with other experiences that people have claimed to be inate and yet we don’t think are. Interestingly with a previous civil rights issue that being of race where people were arguing against certain sexual traits being inate in order to gain greater rights. Hmm I might expand on that in a blog. In the mean time I hope my views are clarified by part II

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        • Being innate” is strongly evidenced. The utter failure of the ex-gay movement to produce a cure, the misery it inflicted on countless people, is clear enough. Lots of people are exclusively same-sex attracted, whether the cultural baggage of the word “gay” applies to them or not.

          But “being innate” is only used on opponents who are idiots. Anyone with any good will sees that people have attractions. No-one but the couple can say that they should act on them or not.

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