Shame of the lesbians

Are gay people pressured into transition, because others are more homophobic than they are transphobic? It seemed ridiculous to me. My lesbian friend insisted that it happens- in Britain, not just in Iran.

I don’t think that would be a Christian point of view. Those Christians who hate gay people also hate trans people, from the same misunderstanding of the Bible and Christianity. Those Christians- more and more of us- who accept trans people accept gay people. It is my impression that there is more transphobia about than homophobia: there is no serious debate in The Morning Star whether lesbians should be excluded from feminist groups, but it is asserted there that transgender politics “erases feminism”.

Some people who are gay considered transition when children. I have met some. Justine McNally felt more comfortable with a male online avatar, and dressed in an apparently male way to visit her girlfriend, but had not taken any steps toward transition- had she done so, the case might not have been brought. She may be trans, but not feel able to state that, or take steps to transition.

Her actions show that she felt she must appear male to have a female partner. The judgment was not clear whether she had had female partners off-line before. If she is lesbian rather than trans, that shows internalised homophobia. Would that be enough to make her bind her breasts, take T, or seek surgery? She did not assert during the criminal process that she is trans.

We can’t know. We don’t even know what proportion of transitioners revert.

To me, we have to trust the person themself making their own decisions, and the physicians prescribing treatment. I hope that people do not want surgery or hormones merely to conform, and that psychiatrists would be able to spot that. It is transphobic to suppose that everyone who reverts should never have had treatment, or that social pressure will be sufficient to make cis people seek medical transition without clear evidence. It makes the speaker’s revulsion against the treatment the measure of its rightness, and ignores trans people’s desire for it. Unreasonable restrictions on trans surgery are transphobic. Trans people live under a miasma of transphobia, internal and external, and make decisions we would not make, if we were free. I hope lesbians suffering under homophobia don’t get as far as breast reduction surgery and testosterone before they realise they are not trans.

Titian, Sisyphus

44 thoughts on “Shame of the lesbians

  1. Clare… Thank you. I must say that I am happy to see this subject matter. You have touched on a topic that I, as someone who lived this, am always avoiding. It’s so therapeutic to see that we are not alone in this world and you did that for me here. Thank you.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Reblogged this on Jorda's Blog and commented:

    This is something I never considered but it makes sense. I made a lot of silly choices growing up just to fit in and not be the one out lesbian in my graduating class (in a small Bible Belt town, I should add). We should not have to act like something we are not to feel normal.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Welcome, Jorda. Thank you for commenting and reblogging. No-one should have to pretend to be “normal”.

      Here’s the thing. Justine McNally felt the need to pretend to be male when meeting her girlfriend, but she had another option: she could have said she was not female, a trans man or genderqueer or neutrois. Would lesbians do that, and might any go as far as taking testosterone or having surgery, in order to maintain such a pretence?

      Liked by 2 people

      • I can see how some lesbians might see a transition as an option. My wife once told me she had briefly considered it because, on the outside, it would make us appear normal, but that path only seems to complicate matters more, especially when children are involved. That thought my wife had was a way of her trying to make herself feel “right”, but not necessarily herself. And, although she would not go through with something that drastic, I don’t doubt some have. We should not have to live in a world where we have to change ourselves to feel like we belong. Some people don’t feel right in their body, or as a male or a female, and there is nothing wrong with that either. But I definitely see an issue with someone physically changing themselves when their appearance or identity is what they are struggling to accept personally.

        Liked by 3 people

  3. Clare Flourish, I am not into the gay lifestyle myself. However, I am also not in favor of using the force of law to deny the right of gay people to get married.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Clare Flourish, I can understand why some people may oppose gay marriage. However, there is a certain degree of hypocrisy among people like Newt Gingrich who claim to advocate the defense of traditional marriage. However, he has been married 3 times. So I question his credibility in that regard. The lack of logic is absurd. Not only that, I have a hard time believing that kids who are raised in a household ran by same sex couples are going to grow up and be dysfunctional in society. Personally, I am not into the gay lifestyle myself. At the same time, I do not believe in discrimination. While I get the fact that not all people who are straight oppose gay marriage, how is it anybody’s business as to who is married to who, be they a heterosexual couple or a gay couple? Your thoughts are welcome.


    • Jeffrey Liakos again, ladies and gentlemen, being as liberal and judicious as he can. Thank you, Jeffrey.

      Gay marriage is won, thank God, apart from in Australia and Northern Ireland. I hope they will catch up soon.


  5. Clare Flourish, I would classify myself as a Constitutionalist/Libertarian kind of guy. Gay marriage bans violate the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. On, people come out as being gay, which I support. Mainly because ignorant and bigoted people need to understand that gay people are only different from the rest of us because of their sexual orientation. People can argue all they want that the U.S. Supreme Court acted Unconstitutionally when they legalized same sex marriage. That in my opinion is absurd. While I am not into the gay lifestyle myself, I have absolutely no problem with people who are.


    • Jeffrey, I am glad. That would appear Libertarian of you. Not being American, I am not certain what “Constitutionalist” means but if it means supporting rule by Constitution I am in favour of it.

      Added: Is it this you mean? They seem very keen on the right to bear arms.


  6. Clare Flourish, on, some people come out as being part of the LGBT community. Basically telling their stories about how they come out of the closet as the saying goes. What is distasteful to me is the hate, bigotry and intolerance being perpetuated against the gay community. Not to mention the blind ignorance of opponents of gay marriage. As I commented previously, I am not into the gay lifestyle, however, I have no problem with people who are. Regarding my point about the hypocrisy of people who advocate the defense of traditional marriage and yet have been married multiple times like Newt Gingrich, what are your thoughts?


  7. Clare Flourish, I don’t care who gets married to who, be they a same sex couple or a heterosexual couple. Even though I would not be into the LGBTQ lifestyle myself, I really don’t care who is. Mainly because it is none of my business and it would never adversely affect me in any regard. On, as I mentioned, some people have come out and told their stories about being gay. Gay bashing is something I do not support. Back to my earlier comment about my belief that children living in homes ran by same sex couples, that they would probably not in some cases have problems with a dysfunctional family dynamic, what are your thoughts?


  8. Jeffrey, it is very difficult to see what you mean, precisely.

    There is a certain degree of hypocrisy among people like Newt Gingrich

    Do you think he is a hypocrite, or not? He cannot defend traditional marriage and betray two wives, whether or not he discussed divorce from his former high school maths teacher while she was in hospital after cancer surgery.

    who claim to advocate the defense of traditional marriage

    Again, what do you mean? Are you saying that he does not in fact defend traditional marriage? Gay marriage has no effect on straight marriage.

    I have a hard time believing that

    Do you disbelieve it, or not? Why would you try to believe it if you did not find it believable?

    that kids who are raised in a household ran by same sex couples are going to grow up and be dysfunctional in society.

    I don’t think they would be any more dysfunctional than those brought up by straights.

    I am not into the gay lifestyle myself.
    While I am not into the gay lifestyle myself
    As I commented previously, I am not into the gay lifestyle
    Even though I would not be into the LGBTQ lifestyle myself

    Why do you feel the need to reiterate this? Do you imply that people who are gay could not be trusted on this issue, that they would be special pleading? Are you merely emphasising that you are not special pleading?

    Gay bashing is something I do not support.

    That is barely minimal to qualify as a civilised human being.

    I would classify myself as a Constitutionalist/Libertarian kind of guy.

    I am anti-authoritarian socialist.

    What I think of what you say: it is fine as far as it goes, except where it is unclear. But it does not go terribly far.


  9. Clare Flourish, maybe I did not explain myself very effectively. The hypocrisy I speak of is how people like Newt Gingrich cheat on their wives,then claim to be for the defense of marriage. So, yes, I would call Newt Gingrich a hypocrite. You can’t realistically cheat on the person with whom you are married, being a wife cheating on her husband or a husband cheating on their wife and then claim to be for the defense of marriage. Now, I am not trying to repeat myself intentionally. So I will have to ask that you try to be patient with me. Back to my citation of some You Tube videos where people come out as being part of the LGBTQ community-they cant help the way they are in some cases. Same sex marriage will always have supporters and opponents.


    • They can’t help the way they are

      Yuck. Why on Earth would they want to? Some people are attracted to the same sex. The only moral objection to that is if they have another partner with a reasonable expectation of faithfulness. If not, why should they not act on that attraction?

      Same sex marriage will always have opponents

      I hope that is not true. Increasing numbers of people see it is entirely unobjectionable. I hope everyone will see it as unobjectionable, very soon.

      You have not cited any particular youtube videos. Are there any in particular to which you would refer me, or Newt Gingrich, or any homophobes reading?


  10. Clare Flourish, Here are a few: 1:, 2:, 3:, 4:, 5: these videos should help the people who are anti-LGBTQ understand that gay people are just the way they are, that they can’t help it and aside from their sexual orientation, they are human just like the rest of us. Personally, I am not a bigoted, anti-gay homophobic kind of guy. Now, if I had a son or daughter who was gay or lesbian, I would not care as to who they were dating only as long as they were happy.


    • Indeed. But I tend not to care what they think. They really don’t matter. The shrinking number of exceptions include those in Australia and Northern Ireland, which might have some effect delaying progress: but even there, one should not pay the zealots too much attention.


  11. Clare Flourish, I fully agree with you. On the website, I have viewed some videos where people come out as being gay. Personally, if I knew anybody who was part of the LGBTQ community or if I had a son or daughter who was gay or lesbian, their happiness would be the only thing that mattered to me. Not their sexual orientation. Same sex marriage will never lead to devaluation of traditional marriage. Homophobia is something I find to be ridiculous.


    • Jeffrey, I am glad.

      Are you aware of the concept of cookies?

      feminist cookies

      The picture comes from this Flickr album, and is explained here and here. It applies to any unprivileged group hearing from the privileged. You are straight, aren’t you? I don’t know what you expect here. You are saying things which are so obvious, so minimal as part of having decent morality- what? you find homophobia ridiculous? Anyone who is not a homophobe finds homophobia ridiculous, disgusting, and vile.

      Do you want a cookie? Do you want your generosity and Ally-dom recognised, praised even, for meeting the minimum standard of a decent human being?

      It is a bit like the American expression “Motherhood and apple pie”. It is a matter which everyone agrees on. So saying you agree with it is at best otiose, and at worst in some subtle way implying that it needs saying. Don’t say it here. I don’t need you to tell me it, and very few of my audience need you to tell them that either. Go and tell some Southern Baptists that their homophobia is ridiculous, and where what they say is homophobic.


  12. Clare Flourish, I know the word normal is subjective, however, do you think gay people are just as normal as the rest of us but only different based on their sexual orientation?


    • My philosopher friend says the word “normal” is meaningless separate from culture. To the Southern Baptists, gay people are not normal. To the majority of British people, gay people are normal. The etymology is the same as “norm” meaning rule.


  13. Clare Flourish, I personally see nothing wrong with the gay community. In all honesty, the idea of same sex marriage being legal is something I advocate. Of course, arguing about it is unrealistic.


    • What do you mean, “unrealistic”? People may be persuaded when you argue. Arrogant people who cannot imagine that anyone would disagree with them might be shocked out of that arrogant view, and thereby led to empathy. Arguing is worthwhile.


  14. No matter how much time you spend trying to convince opponents of same sex marriage that same sex marriage has no effect on their marriages, they may not be entirely convinced. I see nothing wrong with 2 people of the same sex wanting to marry. Personally, if I had a son or daughter who was gay or lesbian, all I would tell them is to come home with whoever makes them happy.


  15. Clare Flourish, I am a guy who does not wish to pass judgement against anybody, based on their cultural differences, ethnicity and/or sexual identity. 2 people of the same sex wanting to marry-I fully support that personally.


  16. Clare Flourish, I went to the blog you mentioned, however things seemed to backfire. The guy is well-thought out, however, he seems to be closed-minded on the matter of gay marriage.


  17. Clare Flourish, as this is your blog, I will try to govern my words carefully. However, politics is something I am passionate about. You told me you were sorry to hear about my epilepsy. What post did you read that mentioned on?


    • I can’t remember now, it was a long time ago. I googled your name, and found your contributions on a number of blogs. Where did you mention it?

      Added: You wrote, Maria, I have Epilepsy as well. Believe me, I can relate to how you feel. She did not respond, perhaps she had better things to do. You must know whether you have epilepsy or not. Your trolling appears to be to get others to scurry about answering you. It’s not that difficult to answer you, and I might even indulge you a bit. What would you like to ask me?


  18. Clare Flourish, it was Unstoppable Maria’s blog. You said trolling as if it is a bad thing. Or am I misunderstanding you? Of course, I am willing to discuss and debate the issues if done in a civil manner. Another thing you said is that some people are attracted to the same sex. Personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even though it may not be seen as normal or healthy in the eyes of some people, what are your thoughts on same sex parenting?


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